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Last Post:
Oct 30, 2007 3:03 AM
by: crackwalker
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The Zuda that wasn't
Posted:
Oct 26, 2007 5:52 PM
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Did anyone else feel a sense of loss with the announcement of the first contestants and instant winner. I am sitting here with my Zuda submission comic on my PC and I cant help but feel and sense of emptiness. I am going to get slaughtered.
Its not that the art is bad. It is pretty good by webcomic standard. Its not that the story or dialog is bad. Again by webcomic standards its pretty good if you take my obviously biased opinion. I was pretty jazzed about my submission. I thought I might have a chance. I was even considering taking the train up from DC for the Zuda launch party.
And then I took a look at the instant winner. Are you freaking kidding me! A mythic combination of depression era Mississippi, African mythology and American folklore with artwork that looks like it should be hanging in a gallery. This guy is awesome. I mean you know the guy is good if his name appears before the title JEREMY LOVE'S Bayou.
And just like that the sad realization came to me. Zuda was not what I thought it was going to be.
I dont blame Zuda for soliciting professional artists. They are a business after all and looking to make money. Zuda pays a very good rated for web publishing that is sure to attract pros. There is an old saying; when you pay peanuts you attract monkeys. The thing people dont realize is when you dont pay peanuts the monkeys go hungry.
Zuda has every right to create a professional web publishing house. After all they are an offshoot of DC not some fly by night company. Zuda is not here to make all us novices feel good about our selves. They are here to make a profit off the web. They want to produce professional quality comics on the web. To do, in general, one usually has to higher professionals. Professionals being the primary source of professional work on the planet earth.
I guess that is where my sense of loss comes from. I sort of assumed that Zuda WAS here to make me feel good about myself. I mean I love DC. The opportunity to work for a subsidiary of DC would have been awesome. To have the input from a professional editor would have been invaluable for me. I sort of assumed I would be getting a rotten deal on the money side for the great opportunity to learn and grow it would have afforded me. I should have known something was up when the $250 per page rate was given.
Here is the thing. Every other webcomic site is about making the novice feel good about themselves. They hold peoples hand walk them through the process. Give them tools and advice on how to improve. But that is not Zuda. Zuda is a harsh and hard place where you need to compedent and sharp to begin with. There is no finding your feet here. There is not learning what works and what doesnt. You start off with a bang or not at all. There is nothing wrong with that. That is the way the publish world works. I am a little saddened to find that the pond is a little too big for me.
Dont get me wrong I am still going to submit my comic because that is what I do. I never let something like inevitable defeat stop me before. But I still feel a little sad for the special place on the web that never was.
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Re: The Zuda that wasn't
Posted:
Oct 26, 2007 6:33 PM
in response to: drowemos
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Thank you.
Don't call me a complainer or a hater. I have nothing against these guys n' gals.
But when Zuda was first announced, I took 'competition' to mean like American Idol, where they let everyone have a shot, and the public decides... and you get weirdos like Clay Aiken in there, that never would have got through the front door.
But it seems like 'competition' means 'tender' as in, 'call for submissions' which is back to the regular old publishing system. Which means you don't get the call unless someone knows you already, like these ten people did. Not knocking them, they are working hard and sweating blood and all that, but they got the call. There is no way I am going to get the call from anyone. I don't know anybody.
I am totally still working on my stuff (I have two right now, one with a collaborator) and I will still submit them. You don't have to tell me to shut up or put up, because I'm putting up. I'm bucking up and all that. But the dream that Zuda was going to be an empowering webcomics entity just got a bit dimmer.
Message was edited by: crackwalker
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Registered:
9/23/07
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Re: The Zuda that wasn't
Posted:
Oct 26, 2007 8:03 PM
in response to: crackwalker
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Using your American Idol analogy, no one is saying that you can't get in front of the judges... you can. If you submit your work, they'll see it and make a decision. If your work isn't up to their standards, then they will be the only ones who see it. Personally, I think that's a good thing.
I can't stand sites like KeenSpace or whatever it's called now because there are so many strips that just aren't worth the time it takes for them to load in my browser. I rarely go there unless someone sends me a direct link to a good strip. It'll be nice to have somewhere that will be publishing strips that meet certain minimum requirements. Let someone else wade through the drek for me; I have better things to do with my time.
Now, I do tend to agree that Zuda could have done a better job with communicating these issues regarding soliciting talent from creators before the competition opens. The announcement of who the creators were, the instant winner, all that kind of stuff (which as Ron points out was referenced early on) would have been great to use as fodder for launching their nascent blog.
News items like this should be posted directly somewhere on the Zuda site before they go out to Newsarama or other outlets... or at the very least (if they want to give another site the scoop) post it within a half hour of Newsarama's column. The reason things like this need to find a home, here on the Zuda site, is because they will help foster the idea that this is a community. Where better to go to learn the latest events and happenings regarding Zuda than the community itself.
Currently, the best place to learn about the Zuda community is... the Newsarama community. That seems strange to me. Hopefully, these issues will be resolved once the site actually launches on Tuesday.
John Ward
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119
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7/16/07
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Re: The Zuda that wasn't
Posted:
Oct 27, 2007 7:16 AM
in response to: jlwardx
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John, I agree with your last points. We should have heard about the launch date, the first ten contestants and the first "instant winner" here first, not Newsarama. That's just good community building practice, and Zuda dropped the ball there.
It also would have been nice had it been crystal clear that while the open submission contests would start the day the site launches, Zuda would be launching with 10 preselected comics and one instant winner from day one. While the staff has pointed out that they made no secret of launching the site with content, I think they could have anticipated that launching with an instant winner and 10 comics that they went out and solicited would rub some people the wrong way. So, hopefull, the staff will recognize this and make their own boards the site for dropping news first.
But as far as the opening sentiment of this thread, I didn't get the same feeling. I don't think Zuda ever advertised itself as a site for everyone out there. I'd argue that if the comic your thinking of submitting is the first comic you've ever written or drawn, you don't have much of a chance to win here. For a very good page right, they should expect professional quality work....that's not to say this is a site exclusively for professional comic artists. There are plenty of sites out there for webcomics, and the barriers to entry are quite low to getting your stuff out there. Zuda is trying to raise the bar on webcomics.
While it certainly is disappointing and can be discouraging to realize that one's own project, while "good" isn't going to be "good enough" to win, you really just have to look at it as a learning experience, get back to the drawing board, and get better.
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Re: The Zuda that wasn't
Posted:
Oct 27, 2007 8:43 AM
in response to: tycarian
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Ty and John are on the money here. The lead-up to the Zuda opening has been strange, but hell, it's never been done before, so I'm not too uptight about it.
When I picture a mature Zuda, I picture a website that I can go to and no matter what kind of genre is represented there, it's going to be top-notch. That's a huge difference from having to slog through the quagmire of "waste-of-time" webcomics that is on most sites out there. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for anyone being able to grab some web-realestate and put up their comic, but I honestly don't have time to go to a site and look through a couple-hundred webcomics to find something I like. Zuda's pre-editing and viewer-choice process keeps that from happening.
Of course, with a big player like DC entering the webcomic arena, the risk is there for the same thing to happen to webcomics as to print comics: the publisher figures out what sells......and tosses the rest.
So, while I'm glad that we're seeing a level of professionalism that frankly just isn't present on most webcomic sites, there is an almost certainty that DC being here will change the face of webcomics. We'll have to see if it's for better or worse.
-Dave Flora
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105
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7/12/07
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Re: The Zuda that wasn't
Posted:
Oct 27, 2007 9:35 AM
in response to: dave_flora
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Keenspace or whatever its called is ComicGenesis.
http://www.comicgenesis.com/
And that's the face of webcomics. Not trying to rub your nose in it or anything, just saying that there are a lot of people out there, already doing the thing known as 'webcomics', and DC can't just appropriate that culture because they start putting comics on the web.
One of the strengths of the internet is that everyone is included. Even the freaky weirdos that don't know how to turn off caps-lock (j/k). You may feel its a waste of time to sift through piles of crap manga and furry comics looking for that one gem, but that's indie culture. That's the same thing that happens at comic shops in the 99 cent bins, it happens at used record shops, and Value Village and other used clothing stores. It's the source of the kinds of trends and culture that the suits and marketers want to find out about early so they can cash in.
That's the opportunity that Zuda is missing out on by over-handling the talent. It doesn't even matter if the creators are completely autonomous and doing their own thing... if it _seems_ like it's been market researched and test-grouped and packaged, then they will lose the webcomics audience.
There is an audience for webcomics because there are a lot of people that are looking for something different. Webcomics have all the sharp edges left on, and it's refreshing to read something that raw and unfiltered. Those are the people that are watching this website very quietly, waiting to see if it's just more of the same old stuff, but on the web.
You may not care. You have all your arguments about DC is a company that's taking a risk and they have a right to demand quality, and you're right. It's their show. They can make their pretty comics and people that like that sort of thing will come and read them. But they will not be reaching any new audience. They will be a smaller chunk of the people that are already reading their print comics.
Those of us that have been living with webcomics for a while have come to like the freaks and weirdos and bad artwork. It's a part of the culture. If you take it out, it's not webcomics anymore. It's just comics.
I like comics! I buy lots of 'em. Printed ones! Darwyn Cooke is like unto the lord! Stuart Immonen rocks the casbah! But that's not what I read webcomics for. And I am not alone.
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7/16/07
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Re: The Zuda that wasn't
Posted:
Oct 27, 2007 2:35 PM
in response to: crackwalker
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Yes, yes. Crackwalker, you're absolutely right. If you're defining webcomics as only "indie" published material, then Zuda is not doing webcomics. Let's call them "zedcomics". Keep in mind that most people out there on the net aren't "freaks" or "wierdoes", they're just average people surfing the net during a lunchbreak or after school. It'll be those people who decide if the future lies in "webcomics" or "zedcomics".
I'm not saying that this is good or bad. It's simply the way things work. Lots of independent people do their own thing, and then, when it becomes marketable, a big company comes in and redefines it. For example, before 1900, there were plenty of different ideas of what Santa Claus looked like, depending on what country your family came from. Then, Coke came along and put up advertisements with "their" image of Ol' Saint Nick. Since they were a big company, they could put that image out in front of lots of people and in the end......
Well, ask any child what Santa looks like. He looks like Coke's Santa.
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105
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Re: The Zuda that wasn't
Posted:
Oct 27, 2007 5:05 PM
in response to: dave_flora
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Sure. Is that a good thing? Santa is red and white because Coke says so. It doesn't really matter in the end.
I mean, it's not like anyone can fight it. VHS killed Beta. People will do what they do. Culture obeys its own rules.
Maybe Zuda will come along and do their thing their way, and it will all go according to their big fat plan. Who am I? I'm just a guy with an opinion.
Most people aren't freaks and weirdos, but most people like to read stuff written by freaks and weirdos. Stephen King. JRR Tolkien. George Lucas. Anne Rice. Warren Ellis. Grant Morrison. Alan Moore...
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Re: The Zuda that wasn't
Posted:
Oct 28, 2007 11:12 AM
in response to: drowemos
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Yes. Zuda is going to be a professional web publishing house. They are going to produce comic by well known pros that may have topics that are not mainstream enough. So you will get comics about two robots falling in love but it will be done by a heavy weigh in the industry.
Sure any one can enter. Just like anyone could challenge Mohamad Ali to a boxing match. You could step into that ring. But come on its Mohamad Ali.
Each month we will see 4-5 ringers competing against the novices. Maybe a novice will luck out, maybe. But for the most part you are going to see established names with an active a fanbase taking the prize.
And as for the 6 (now 5) instant winner spots
Well unless you are able to put your name before the title of your comic you can just forget about those. Those are spots are for when people like Gaiman decided to descend from the heavens and slum about with us mortal on the net for a bit. You and I are not met to partake of the ambrosia of an instant win.
Zuda never said they were not going to do this
How ever they never really said they were going to do it either. They played the coy game of withholding information. Not correcting miss assumptions. Let us apply our own hopes and dreams to a tabula rasa. They knew what was going to happen and the business plan they had set up. But they did not want to share that with the rest of us. As has been stated they did not even announce the contestants on this site.
Why? Well even though Zuda has little interest in us as comic makers they do need us as marketing machines. The needed us to create buzz, to spread the word across the internet. We are the ones on every comic related message board. We are the ones with roots in the current webcomic community. Zuda needed us to get excited. And we did.
Well played Zuda. Well played.
Again there is nothing wrong with what they did. Zuda has a goal of producing professional quality comics on the internet. To be open to new talent but only if it is up to there high standards. Then use the marketing potential of the internet to increase sales of there mainstream products. Zuda is about marketing the pros not finding the diamonds in the rough. There are other sites for that.
As I said. I just though things were going to be different.
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Posts:
256
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8/20/07
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Re: The Zuda that wasn't
Posted:
Oct 28, 2007 12:09 PM
in response to: drowemos
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I'm not seeing the grim picture that some having been painting about Zuda since the announcement of the first ten contestants and the instant winner. I've looked at what was written up about Bayou and looked over the artwork and I have to say, although it's nice, I don't feel like it's anything I couldn't do myself. I have over 18 years of illustration experience (personal, not professional) and I majored in 2-D studio/Graphic Design at a small liberal arts school in Illinois. I have done some commissioned portraits in charcoal, I've created pieces in pencil, pen and ink, pastels, oil, acrylic, and tempera. I'm not the best out there, but I certainly feel I can compete on the professional level. Since graduating college I've put my art aspirations on the backburner so that I could focus on creative writing and that's what I've been doing over the last 3 years. And then comes along Zuda ... And I'm like yes! Because now I finally have a chance to put my work out there for the industry professionals to critique and possibly like enough to endorse.
Now, I'm not delusional, I know my art skills are rusty and I'm still growing as a writer. So it was never my plan to submit with Zuda as soon as the floodgates were open, but since I've found out about Zuda, back in June, I've been keeping a sketchbook and writing even more. I try to complete one sketch a day on my lunch break and then I come home and work on the novel I'm writing in the evenings when I don't have to work at my part-time job. I don't know if this novel will be picked up by a mainstream publishing house, but I know it's teaching me how to write, along with about 40 books, I've purchased over the last 2 years.
I say all of this point out the fact that I'm not intimidated by the industry professionals and the reason I'm not intimidated is because I've put in a lot of hard work to perfect my craft and to bring it to industry standards. When we get licensed or certified in a professional field there is a certain level understanding and technical know-how one must achieve before one can ascertain the license and/or certification. The field of professional comics is no different, artist and writers have to be at least as good as their peers in order to get in and even better to really get noticed.
Zuda has done us a favor because now we have the gold standard by which to measure our own progress.
Btw, the synopsis to Bayou sound incredibly creative and I can't wait to start reading it!
-Jernell
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105
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Re: The Zuda that wasn't
Posted:
Oct 28, 2007 12:21 PM
in response to: ja726
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Drow isn't saying there's anything wrong with 'what Zuda is'. A gold standard and quality and good comics is all fine and good.
What he is saying is that it seemed like Zuda was something else, and that there was not any clear effort on the part of Zuda to clarify that.
When you use words like 'community', people tend to start to look at you a certain way. Like a community where you get help and assistance and encouragement. That's the sort of picture that Zuda put out there. The defense so far has been, basically, "well you didn't read the fine print" and well, great. That's true. Shame on me. Boy do I feel dumb.
Yay. What a great start to the Zuda 'community'.
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Re: The Zuda that wasn't
Posted:
Oct 28, 2007 12:37 PM
in response to: crackwalker
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I feel you and I agree there should have been more of an effort to make it clear exactly what Zuda's primary goals and intents were. I hope this miscommunication doesn't ruin the experience for everyone because we can still do our best to make this a community like PencilJack.com. I don't know what all Zuda will be offering when it goes live but we can take it upon ourselves to keep sketchblogs, scriptblogs, etc and give/get constructive feedback on our work. We can give each other advice on where to buy professional equipment and materials and all of that. I feel that Zuda should initiate and maintain the community aspects of this site, but if they don't we still could.
-Jernell
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Re: The Zuda that wasn't
Posted:
Oct 28, 2007 1:00 PM
in response to: ja726
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Absolutely. Any time I see anyone take that leap and put pen to paper I applaud them. The _process _ is far more important to me than the product. It's very exciting for me to see people get up the nerve to express themselves and try and make their mark on the world.
There are tons of professionals getting paid to do their thing, and I enjoy their work, but I get a different kind of thrill from webcomics. It's the interaction and connectivity that engages me. I look forward to doing what I can to encourage anyone who feels like they have a story to tell.
- crackwalker
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9/23/07
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Re: The Zuda that wasn't
Posted:
Oct 28, 2007 2:09 PM
in response to: drowemos
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Hey Drowemos,
I think you're overreacting a bit when you state that Zuda is going to feature 'industry heavyweights'. Come on... I don't think we're going to be seeing Jim Lee, Todd McFarlane, or any other artist who's been featured in Wizard's Top Ten List. Same with writers. $250 per page sounds like good money to us, but it's not worth the effort for those guys. And, unless Neil Gaiman responds to my e-mails asking him to write a script for me (I'm joking, but I can wish), I doubt he'll be participating either.
What you will have is guys who've already put in a lot of hard work and who may have some publishing credits to their name. These are the guys (and gals) that Zuda was set up for-- I've always thought that. I'm really surprised that you don't. So, yeah, you're going to have to compete on that level if you want your stuff to be featured here (or at least that's the way I'm reading things).
There are tons of sites out there dedicated to helping people improve as artists and as writers, but Zuda-- it seems-- isn't really about that. This is for people who are ready now and are looking for the right entry point into the industry.
Even if you're not ready now, Zuda is still a good thing for you because it has made access to editors (who can purchase your work) a little easier. You don't have to mail physical copies of your stuff to New York and wait six months (or longer) for a response. You don't have to travel to a convention and wait in line for an entire day hoping that they get to you before they leave to review your portfolio. All you have to do is crawl out of bed at two in the morning and submit your stuff electronically. You don't even have to change out of your pajamas. Can't get too much easier than that.
I realize I come across as a brain-washed Zuda fanboy, but I'm not. I really feel that they are dropping the ball with community development. You really can tell that they are new with this idea of internet communities, and I'm hoping that IBM (who should have a decent amount of experience) has provided them with an infrastructure that the users can claim as their own to create the community atmosphere for which we are all hoping.
Maybe once the community aspects are revealed we can form groups to help one another improve as artists or writers or whatever. If Zuda doesn't provide the tools, as I said earlier, there are literally hundreds of sites that already provide this sort of thing. There are also great social networking tools (Yahoo Groups/Google Groups) that could be leveraged for that exact purpose. Not exactly what you're looking for, but maybe it helps a little.
John Ward
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